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Re: [WMASTERS] Initial voiced stops.
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The fundamental 'principle' is we can not realistically represent *all*
oli's by ezuththu's. There are 'infinite' variations.
We should only try to 'capture' as much as possible with as minimum a set
of ezuththu as possible.
I use the tamil words because they
mean a lot to us ( there are differences in the sense and import
when compared to corresponding terms of linguistic science).
[The arguments are similar to those in the field of music.
Do we want to have 7 or 12 or 22 or 24 or 48 or... suram ?
There are 'infinite possibilities'. ]
The variations in pronunciation are too
great even for tamil words- and the same is true for foreign words too.
Even proper names may differ
( Stephan, Stefan etc. pronounced as stiifan , stefan etc. etc.)
in pronunciation. The pronunciation also varies with time etc.
It will be futile to try to immitate.
Let me cite an example:
The way 'see you' is said here is different from the way
one reads from text.
Please read on..
*Just responding to Selva's comments:
*> I've heard people pronounce kavani and payam (more common in the
*> south TN than in the north). This is also the=20
*> preferred pronounciation since that is closer to tamil way of
*> pronouncing. If gavani and bayam *should* be encouraged=20
*> (I don't see why), why not
*> write the way I suggested as (ng)kavani, (m)payam.
*> Do English say maankaay or mango? inji_vEr or ginger ?
*> kattumaram or catamaran ? paRaiyan or paraia ?=20
*We don't have to follow the English example. In fact, it is precisely for
*this reason I would like to see Tamils accommodating foreign sounds,
*particularly proper nouns. I am not suggesting that we should keep Grantha
*characters to write =83=F8=98=D6, but to write =F7=91=C5 instead of =9C=91=
*=C5. Of course we can
*learn to read =9C=91=C5 as Sam, but then one needs to know the rules. With
*foreign names, it is not possible to apply rules of phonetics. One can't
*accommodate all foreign sounds, but Tamils have accommodated some (Grantha)
*and it is best to keep them.
How do you pronounce Coulomb ? In Tamil I learned as kooloombu, but
only after coming to Canada I heard it said differently. What we say
in tamil is for *us* tamils. Did we understand any less because
we said as kooloombu ? No. Our honourable Prime Minister of Canada
says 'kaanadaa' for Canada and the English pronounce Canada
differently. I find this insistence that we should try to pronounce
'foreign' words accurately ( according to which region, which time
in history). English is pronounced so differently in so many places.
In my view we should not try to be too fastidious about
foreign words. It is a futile effort and it can do harm to our
Tamil. [ As I said even the present 'j' can be misused
for words like 'panju', 'konju', it will pronounce a death blow
to our tamil system. Precisely for this I recommended
using (nj)c for 'j' at the beginning of words or where
a 'j will occur contrary to tamil rule. This way we'll strengthen
the tamil rule and conserve the economy of letters.
Please try my suggestions a mere 10 times, and you'll see that
although you're tempted to say injaan when we write in tamil
njcaan (for John), you'll quickly
learn to ignore or diminish pronouncing the initial 'nj' .
My suggestion can also extend to pronouncing other voiced
stops ( at the beginning of a word or at places not encountered
in tamil) such as Gandhi etc..
If people really care about only a facility to pronounce and not
hung on grantha letters, what I said will appeal. My suggestion will
*protect* the native tamil words and their conventions
and our 'economy of letters'.
*> I certainly don't understand *WHY*=20
*> Tamils have to represent accurately all these borrowed words
*> while English or other languages don't have to.=20
*We should do it, not because we HAVE TO, and not because the linguists' or
*scientists' demad, but simply to become less dependent on English
*characters. If the font developers all decide to do away with Grantha
We are using roman letters anyways and if they care so much let them
use roman characters. Why ? Because we are preventing
'some intelligent and innocent, well-meaning' person to
suggest using these voiced stops at places where we use tamil
characters. If you don't perceive the danger in using separate
voiced stop characters in tamil, I have to presume you don't
understand the tamil history. If we don't learn from history it will
be a pity.
*characters, we can't have a convenient phone directory in Tamil.=20
Why not ? Right now, it is not uncommon to write 'cakannaathan'
for Jagannnathan, although it is also written as Jakannaathan.
People write kanEsan for Ganesan, don't they. My suggestion is
if people want jagannathan, with a voiced stop 'j',
let them write as njcakannathan and
all I'm doing is adding a 'nj' at the beginning instead of tamil
way of writing 'cakannaathan'. Don't we write 'caaminaathan'
for swaminaathan. Don't some people write Subramanian
with grantha 'S' and tamil way of writing cuppiramanian ?
Why should Ganesh have to go as kanEsh but Jagannathan has
to be written as jakannathan ? If you write in the
phone directory ngkaNEcan, it will treat everyone having
non-tamil initial voiced stop, *and* who want others to pronounce
their names with a voiced stop more acceptably, equally,
I think. Has English accepted 'z' so that Mr. Pazaniyappan,
Mr. Azakappan or ms. Malarvizi
can look up his/her name in the Phone directory ( I mean english
dictionaries published in Tamil Nadu) ?
Please give some thought to what I'm saying. It is not such a
terrible thing. With fewer letters we will have *MORE*
'sounds' and 'sound sequences' represented *WITHOUT* the danger of
tamil words being mangled by very kind-hearted-intelligent-innocent
fellows ( the reason I write like this is not to hurt any
well-meaning folks here but to point out
the nayavanjakam being played on tamils and tamil language and culture
so many times in history
and there is no guarantee that no such person will come along the
way; he will also claim that he is suggesting these to empower
tamil for the benefit of tamil etc.)
I earnestly hope tamils will understand the implications of
being foolhardy in adopting more and more 'grantha'.
The few that had gained a little bit more currency had done
a lot of damage. For example rOsaa is looked down upon compared
to rOjaa ( although the so called english word is rose), raasaa
is looked down upon since s/he does not say raajaa etc..
When some say Paarathiyaar, they are ridiculed since he does not
say Baarathiyaar and even if s/he says Baarathiyaar, some
subtley ridicule that s/he can not say properly since it is the
Tamils have to worry about Tamil and we have to set our standards
according to our needs. It is a real pity I've to spend
so much of time here in the so called tamil.net !!
Probably Dr. Anu was right..
(I'm reminding myself the oppariya vaLLuvan's words about
ookkam udaimai udaimai; ookam udaiyaar udaiyaar etc.)
P.S. ( if Prof. Hart is listening) Prof. Hart mentioned about
the writings he saw in tamil as 'laksmi' in somebody's
house with 'ks'.
In Tamil there are many ways the name is written such as
ilakkumi. ilatchumi,.. People also say lachchumi
( here won't modern lingist observe that people
say as lachchumi ?)
If laksmi is to be written that is closer to sanskrit
(pronunciation) rather than tamil ( because tamil is a
neecca baashai and its conventions need not be
respected at all) then it can be written as
la-k-sh-mi ( assuming grantha sh is there)
or la-k-zc-mi ( without any grantha)
or la-k-z-cu-mi ( without any grantha).
or introuduce ks merely for the sake of a few words
like saakshi, laksmi etc..
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